Corey Noles, staff writer for The Daily Statesman and Editor of The North Stoddard Countian, is the author of a regular baseball/St. Louis Cardinals column and also uses his blog to sound off on various happenings in sports. He also operates a weekly baseball mailbag column.

Where's the passion?

Posted Friday, July 13, 2007, at 4:47 PM

Over the course of the last week or so we've had some lively discussion about some of the bigger political issues of the day and that's sparked a question in my mind that I thought might be worthy of it's own blog.

Why do young people seem to take no interest in what's going on in the world? What is it that is so different about today's generation that keeps them from becoming active in the causes they believe in?

I know this is 1967 and the issues have changed, but why does it seem like young people don't take the active part in the world they once did.

Forty years ago when an issue rose to importance, the young people of America spoke out for what they believed. If they disagreed, they protested. If they supported the idea, they became involved.

It just seems like the passion is gone. Maybe the issues to have the same power or they don't feel their opinion matters.

What will it take to make people understand they have to stand up for what they believe in, no matter what the cause.

My first year of college I took a course designed to provoke thought and discussion on various current issues. On day one, our professor gave a quiz, but not just any ordinary quiz.

It asked questions like who is the vice-president? Recite the pledge of allegiance? Who are your legislators? Probably a dozen more of the like followed.

The scores were pathetic. Out of 32 students only 12 could name the vice-president. Six could name their legslators. Only 15 could recite the Pledge of Allegiance (for some reason none could remember "indivisible").

What's wrong with this picture? Why the lack of interest in the world surrounding them?

Comments

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Interesting, isn't it, that during the Vietnam War years, young people were highly criticized for having too MUCH passion for current events?

-- Posted by goat lady on Fri, Jul 13, 2007, at 6:12 PM
I've noticed that people in Dexter seem to be able to deal with the different opinions of people far better than Kennett Missouri! Wow. That said, I'm not sure why no one seems to stand up for anything anymore. I'm 28 years old and a Christian. Something I truly get irritated about is the number of Christian people that participate in the moral downfall of America. (By supporting immoral movies, companies, etc. etc.) Something as simple as just saying no to certain things- if enough people "walked the walk" instead of just "talking the talk"- could make a world of difference!

The way the world is today you have to be so careful not to offend anyone without being attacked, whether physically or emotional, or sued. Maybe that is why everyone keeps mum? Or is it that Americans have gotten so involved in every day life, peer pressure, media pressure, etc. that they don't have a core system of beliefs anymore that they truly and earnestly believe in.

I wish that people had the courage and belief system to actually take a stand for things they believe in.

-- Posted by vambfly on Fri, Jul 13, 2007, at 8:22 PM

Corey Noles' response:
I like your point about talking the talk and walking the walk. That's so true, especially today.

Political correctness and the general fear of offending anyone is, in my opinion, one of the biggest roadblocks this country faces. You can't have discussion and reach a solution if you're afraid to face the problem.
They do have the passion. These are the young men and women that volunteer to join our armed forces every day. Not drafted and volunteering to go to Iraq and Afghanistan. Volunteers, not one draftee and not because they are uneducated or are poor people looking for a job. The unemployment rate is pretty low. Pure passion and patriotism. Some don't have it and some people have to look close to recognize it I guess because of what we saw passion as in the past and as was reported to us. They are not dirty looking with long hair and walking around in a stupor like many were in the 60's. I remember it. Not all were like that and I wouldn't want to insult those who voiced their true felt dissent about what was happening, but they had a lot of help from a lot of people who just thought it was cool. Walk around in a dope induced daze and chant anti- government slogans. Cool to have passion, in the 60's anyway. Not so cool and not so noticeable today, but it sure is there. Next time you see a sober, clean shaven, articulate and alert military member in uniform who probably is working on attaining a college degree, recognize that you are looking at a young kid with passion and loves their country of course. Cool passionate people. I love'm. Can you tell?

-- Posted by I.B. Le Truth on Fri, Jul 13, 2007, at 8:28 PM

Corey Noles' response:
That's a very good point. I really hadn't looked at it from that perspective. My other question lies in why do the people they fight and die for not exercise these rights also? Men and women have fought and died for well over 200 years for the right we have to stand and speak our minds. In many countries this very conversation wouldn't be happening without serious consequences.

Thanks so much for your input. That's why we're doing this.
You are welcome Corey. Now the next time you see them you will know, right? And I wouldn't worry too much, if it gets had enough we'll start squawking. Right now we just have it too easy, but failure to voice dissent does not always imply approval.

-- Posted by I.B. Le Truth on Fri, Jul 13, 2007, at 8:58 PM
Wow, what a cool discussion. It's really neat to see someone who has such faith in our youth.

I remember that 60's generation, too. When I started teaching in Missouri in 1964, things were pretty calm and the kids were super nice. Then I got the shock of my life, moving to Alaska, where they'd been invaded by Californians. I had never experienced such culture shock!! During an assembly, I found myself surrounded by kids yelling about not trusting anyone over thirty. I said, "But I'm 28!!"

I wouldn't want to go back to that era. Surely there's a happy medium....

-- Posted by goat lady on Fri, Jul 13, 2007, at 9:35 PM
I would not go so far as to make the blind assumption that the only youth who are willing to do anything they believe are the ones serving in the armed forces. In fact, as a college student, I would argue the contrary. I know many of my peers who joined the armed services for a thousand reasons BUT doing what they believe in. I think that youth are more active now than they have ever been, but because they try to actually accomplish goals instead of completely bucking the system they are overlooked. What am I talking about you ask? Well just recently the LiveEarth concerts are a good place to start. If that isn't enough, how about global efforts such as the Invisible Children Campaign (Uganda), the campaign to save Darfur (Sudan), or the Live8 concerts? Aside from these major movements, many not-for-profit organizations are staffed and worked by youth who are not even paid. While I am not making excuses for my generation's poor turnout during elections, and while I do realize that there are still a huge number of apathetic youth, I say the same can be said about any other age group in this nation. Now then, go to any university or even high school campus around America, and you will see more things going on today than you could make a list of. From religious organizations to political, from service work to social, today's youth are doing more than ever before. Still, there is an equal number doing nothing. However, aren't most of our elders too busy working to become anymore active than listening to their favorite biased news source every night and waiting for the next election to fill in the circle next to their favorite political party? The youth in America are teaching in English in foreign countries, teaching in poor area of our own country, studying abroad to learn more about foreign cultures, joining the Peace Corps, becoming Big Brothers and Big Sisters, volunteering at places like the YMC and YWCA, but still considered to be idle? I do not think so. I could name different activities, organizations, and efforts that the youth of America are pushing forward out of sheer manpower all day and night. With the upcoming election, I'm seeing Barack Obama energizing the youth vote more and more each day. I suspect that this election might wind up being different than any before. Anyway, one final word on the military. I actually take some offense at the accusation that those serving in the armed services are the beginning and the end when it comes to concerned youth in our nation. In fact, I've seen more than my share of peer join the military for all the wrong reasons. I won't do any bashing of those in the military, but it seems like more people are in the military for the wrong reason and this is exemplified by the crude, abominable, and embarrassing actions of our servicemen over the last few years.

-- Posted by jabelson on Sat, Jul 14, 2007, at 3:19 AM
You know, thats exactly what I was saying, just wasn't including the hate part. They are there and they are great. We may have actually raised our greatest generation. You really shouldn't believe all that propaganda about how bad our service men are. (They are not shooting puppies and babies) They are the same youth you so glowingly talked about in the rest of of your response. Anytime you put thousands of people together you get a few bad ones. There were probably a few among the little darlings at Live Earth. Even some on College campuses and high schools that just kill each other for no reason at all. crazy isn't it.

-- Posted by I.B. Le Truth on Sat, Jul 14, 2007, at 8:50 AM
There is nothing new under the sun. People have been talking about atrocities committed by warriors since before the time of Christ. There were probably some ethical, thoughtful and professional Huns under Atilla. Horrible things happen in war on both sides of the conflict. Who was the most evil is usually decided by who won and who wrote the history. The evil, gross things are what gets written up most often because that's what sells the most papers. We seldom hear about the soldiers who go out of their way to save an enemy, but that has always gone on too.

Youth getting involved in issues (or not) hasn't changed either. Some still do and some don't. We hear about the ones that do. Passion for causes still exists and always will. Silent majorities still exist and always will.

All that's necessary for evil to prevail is for the righteous to do nothing.

-- Posted by Ducky on Sat, Jul 14, 2007, at 9:52 AM
All that's necessary for evil to prevail is for the righteous to do nothing.

Good statement Ducky.

-- Posted by vambfly on Sat, Jul 14, 2007, at 10:29 AM
I don't believe any 'propaganda' about how bad some military men and women are. I know them. They are those 'clean-cut' students working so hard at my university that you speak so glowingly of. Let's not sugarcoat things. You know the military life, I'm sure of it. They aren't shooting puppies or babies, but they do abuse their prisoners and the people they are supposedly protecting. Read some of the quotes and stories coming from the soldiers themselves. Read about the failure by military officials to properly punish misconduct. Now then, I don't blame these people...my peers...for this. They are young people put in wartime situations with weapons told to kill. Their lives are threatened everyday, and human nature takes over. However, I do know that nearly everyone I know serving in the military is there to make money or to attempt to pay the inordinate prices of college tuition. While some of those serving our nation felt compelled to rush out and fight, I know for a fact that the military is one of the best alternatives to paying back Sallie Mae forever. Now then, you're probably right about some bad apples being at places even like LiveEarth. The only difference is, those volunteers don't get paid.

-- Posted by jabelson on Sat, Jul 14, 2007, at 11:46 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19760628/

-- Posted by jabelson on Sat, Jul 14, 2007, at 11:49 AM
I think one thing that factors in as well is kind of a bandwagon effect where kids are joining this "its cool to be apathetic" group. And I know its not fair to say that its youth in general, because there are active youth, but you get the people who act like they don't care about anything unless its something that has an IMMEDIATE kickback...ie drugs, alcohol, etc. At least thats what I have noticed in this area. I remember taking a political communication class and the first day in class, there were 2 girls who were sitting by me saying how much they hated politics...well..YOU'RE IN A POLITICAL COMMUNICATION CLASS! It just seems to be the cool "anti" thing now for alot of people.

Great blog you got here Corey. Keep up the great work!

-- Posted by semosmitty06 on Sat, Jul 14, 2007, at 12:09 PM

Corey Noles' response:
Thanks for the compliment Smitty. Glad to have you here.
I see where semosmitty06 is coming from with the "immediate kickback" comment. I know for me, and I am 30 so a little out of the age group we are discussing but, I go through "spells" where I am very outspoken and passionate about current events and then one day I get tired of caring. frankly put. I mean I have so much going on in my life, married, raising a 3 1/2 year old, working everyday to pay bills, working toward goals and dreams, and I have very little time or energy to passionatly pursue anything that, lets be honest, is going to change very little or none at all.

I am so fed up with the crime and punishment in this country that I just want to scream. There doesn't seem to be enough people in government that care about tougher punishment. And honestly if no one that makes the laws and the rules that we are supposed to live by care about changing things what can we do?

But I go back to my feeling of if I don't care who will. So I sit on this swing going back and forth. I don't think that is a matter of them "not caring" but more a matter of "why talk about it, it won't change anything" attitude. It is for me anyway.

Thanks for the topic.

-- Posted by hgdexter on Sat, Jul 14, 2007, at 1:17 PM

Corey Noles' response:
One idea that I hate hearing, and this isn't just young people, is the idea that there's no point in voting because their one vote isn't going to change anything in the first place. If it were just the one vote, then in most cases (other than Florida) that would be true. The problem is that it becomes a mentality shared by several million people, and that, my friends, does make a difference. The idea that even presidential elections in the U.S. are based on less than 50-percent of the population voting is ridiculous.

Voting is activism at it's best.
I do know quite a lot about the military. Some hate it, some love it, but I do know you don't go there for the money, just doesn't pay that much. In fact below minimum wage. They don't pay back student loans for you either, not in the majority of cases for enlisted personnel. There are some bad people there I am sure, but not the norm. It is pretty difficult to join an all volunteer force now. You have to be physically fit, halfway intelligent, mentally stable (pass a phsch eval), pass a security clearance investigation, be drug free and want to be there. The military is a mirror of the personnel in our society, not a bad reflection as far I am concerned. Can you meet the requirements???? I am going to challenge anyone that says something bad about them even though you have the right to say it. Over 1.1 million men and women have died and many have spent years in POW camps, including some of my ancestors, for your right to do that and my right to tell you that you are way wrong.By the way, a very large percentage of military members do vote even though it is a lot harder for them to do. The next time you see a young person in uniform you should thank them. Don't spit on them or call them names, they might not be as docile as you would like. Don't forget you said they are committing atrocities, no telling what they are capable of.

-- Posted by I.B. Le Truth on Sat, Jul 14, 2007, at 3:12 PM

Corey Noles' response:
It really is ridiculous the loopholes soldiers have to jump through to vote. Quite often if a soldier is stationed overseas it's my understanding their votes may not even reach U.S. soil until after the election is long past and we already know a winner. One would think that since they fight for the country there would be a better system for getting their votes into the country on time.
Haha. I think I should introduce you to the military boys I know.

-- Posted by jabelson on Sat, Jul 14, 2007, at 3:40 PM
J, maybe you just run with a bad crowd. You need to visit the ones in church on Sunday.

-- Posted by I.B. Le Truth on Sat, Jul 14, 2007, at 3:44 PM
P.S. ... from GoArmy.com/

MONTGOMERY GI BILL (MGIB) & ARMY COLLEGE FUND (ACF)

As a Soldier, you can take advantage of the Montgomery GI Bill and the Army College Fund to pay for your college education. Depending on how long you enlist with the Army and the job you choose, you can get up to $72,900 to help pay for college. All you have to do is give $100 a month during your first year of service. If you select the Army College Fund, the total amount is combined with the MGIB.

ACTIVE DUTY BENEFIT

* Up to $72,900 to help pay for college with the MGIB and Army College Fund

CHOOSE ARMY RESERVE AND GIVE YOUR MGIB A KICKER

The Army Reserve offers a selected Reserve Montgomery GI Bill up to $11,124. If you qualify for and accept a critical skill position in the Army Reserve you could earn an additional MGIB Kicker.

ARMY RESERVE BENEFIT

* Up to $23,724 to help pay for college

RESERVE OFFICERS TRAINING CORPS (ROTC) SCHOLARSHIP

College students on more than 700 campuses nationwide can take advantage of the best leadership course in America--Army ROTC Military Science and Leadership. Army ROTC Cadets gain practical experience in management and problem solving while training to become Army Officers.

HOW'S THE MONEY?

* College students, or those on their way to college, can compete for full-tuition scholarships, with generous textbook allowances and an annual stipend worth up to $5,000.

COLLEGE LOAN REPAYMENT PROGRAM

The Army College Loan Repayment Program makes paying off your student loans easier.

ACTIVE DUTY BENEFIT

* Up to $65,000 for Soldiers who enlist full time in the Army for three or more years

ARMY RESERVE BENEFIT

* Up to $20,000 for Soldiers who enlist in the Army Reserve for six years

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/2007paycharts/l/bl07enlbasepay1.htm

There are some BASIC pay charts for the U.S. military...does not include combat pay (the main reason everyone I know enlisting in the military is currently enlisting...aside from the above listed college benefits), enlistment and re-enlistment bonuses, housing allowances, retirement, and other benefits.

Now then, back to the point of this entire debate. There are PLENTY of young people who are volunteering their time and energy to do what they believe in with NONE of the above listed kickbacks.

-- Posted by jabelson on Sat, Jul 14, 2007, at 3:48 PM
P.S. ... from GoArmy.com/

MONTGOMERY GI BILL (MGIB) & ARMY COLLEGE FUND (ACF)

As a Soldier, you can take advantage of the Montgomery GI Bill and the Army College Fund to pay for your college education. Depending on how long you enlist with the Army and the job you choose, you can get up to $72,900 to help pay for college. All you have to do is give $100 a month during your first year of service. If you select the Army College Fund, the total amount is combined with the MGIB.

ACTIVE DUTY BENEFIT

* Up to $72,900 to help pay for college with the MGIB and Army College Fund

CHOOSE ARMY RESERVE AND GIVE YOUR MGIB A KICKER

The Army Reserve offers a selected Reserve Montgomery GI Bill up to $11,124. If you qualify for and accept a critical skill position in the Army Reserve you could earn an additional MGIB Kicker.

ARMY RESERVE BENEFIT

* Up to $23,724 to help pay for college

RESERVE OFFICERS TRAINING CORPS (ROTC) SCHOLARSHIP

College students on more than 700 campuses nationwide can take advantage of the best leadership course in America--Army ROTC Military Science and Leadership. Army ROTC Cadets gain practical experience in management and problem solving while training to become Army Officers.

HOW'S THE MONEY?

* College students, or those on their way to college, can compete for full-tuition scholarships, with generous textbook allowances and an annual stipend worth up to $5,000.

COLLEGE LOAN REPAYMENT PROGRAM

The Army College Loan Repayment Program makes paying off your student loans easier.

ACTIVE DUTY BENEFIT

* Up to $65,000 for Soldiers who enlist full time in the Army for three or more years

ARMY RESERVE BENEFIT

* Up to $20,000 for Soldiers who enlist in the Army Reserve for six years

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/2007paycharts/l/bl07enlbasepay1.htm

There are some BASIC pay charts for the U.S. military...does not include combat pay (the main reason everyone I know enlisting in the military is currently enlisting...aside from the above listed college benefits), enlistment and re-enlistment bonuses, housing allowances, retirement, and other benefits.

Now then, back to the point of this entire debate. There are PLENTY of young people who are volunteering their time and energy to do what they believe in with NONE of the above listed kickbacks.

-- Posted by jabelson on Sat, Jul 14, 2007, at 3:48 PM
I don't see many at my church on Sunday, including my relatives who are serving.

-- Posted by jabelson on Sat, Jul 14, 2007, at 3:49 PM
Which, let me be clear...isn't to say that service men and women are not religious or great people. I'm sure there are many more than can be named. My point is that there are plenty who aren't. Just like there are plenty of other non-service men and women binge drinking with them at the bar at any college or university. I just want respect where respect is due, and I think there are plenty of other young people doing above and beyond for what they believe in and don't receive a bit of praise for it.

-- Posted by jabelson on Sat, Jul 14, 2007, at 3:53 PM
Guy, you know what, you have a problem or maybe just a misunderstanding of what was said or. Why don't you enlist for a few more years and then you will see. Marine Corp would be a good place to start. I will get you the number to a recruiter. No one said anything to you at all about other kids not being great. Was someone you know not allowed in? You are the one who started degrading the military. I am sorry if the military people you know aren't the greatest people in the world. If they are out, maybe that is why they are out. I said earlier that you have to have a security clearance and pass a psychiatric eval. You know that for each one of those benefits you pay a dear price and the great majority never use them. Are your friends using theirs? If not, why not? You know that most of those benefits you have to do special things to qualify for. You spend four years in there and see what you get. A thank you on the way out, maybe. Plus you get to listen to people like you. You work 24 hours a day, 365 days a year for every benefit you get in there. A single guy clears about 250 dollars a week after taxes and puts in 60 to 100 hours for that. It's a tough life. No one is giving them anything they don't earn. The old fashion way. WORK. Tell me who the kids are (that you know) that are doing all this volunteering, not MSNBC and I will thank them the next time I see them. I know a few and I thank them every time I see them. No need to be jealous of the guys in uniform. You are an ex military member that is just trying to get me stirred up, gotta be it. You can quit anytime.

-- Posted by I.B. Le Truth on Sat, Jul 14, 2007, at 6:08 PM
Corey, don't get me wrong, I vote every election. That wasn't my point at all. What I was trying to say is that the youth today, with all the instant gratifacation that is available to them, get disheartened really quick. Things take time and sometimes time seems to be few and far between.

We as a society have to learn that problems aren't solved overnight. That is what the youth of the 60's knew. They were willing to stand in the street for days and weeks to prove their point. Today it is a big deal when the youth have the ability to sit in line for hours and sometimes days, to get the new i-phone or PS3 or whatever new gadget seems to come along.

Sorry if I was not clear. But you are correct that voting is very important. But voting someone into office that has your political views is very tough, and just because they say they will do something doesn't mean they will.

-- Posted by hgdexter on Sat, Jul 14, 2007, at 6:32 PM
Where to start.

First Jabelson, let me just point out an inconsistency in your postings. On the "Iraq-How do you feel after four years?" you reference The Guardian and all these awful stories coming out of Iraq, trying to make us all believe the propaganda, and now in this blog you say "They aren't shooting puppies or babies, but they do abuse their prisoners and the people they are supposedly protecting." So we now can dismiss what you said before about the kids, and puppies, but now we have to believe that our boys are abusing the prisoners? If you don't believe that they are shooting puppies, and babies then why even post it on the other blog?

It seems that if you read something today on some website, you post it tomorrow as fact, even if you have to recant your statements later. I'm sorry but you seem a little confused. Maybe no one ever told you, so I'll tell you now, you can't believe everything you hear on the internet.

Secondly. I think the main problem with youth is that they don't believe in anything. Religion, Morals, Work Ethics, anything! This is a complacent generation. They want it all, but refuse to work for anything.

Vambfly said it right: "Americans have gotten so involved in every day life, peer pressure, media pressure, etc. that they don't have a core system of beliefs anymore that they truly and earnestly believe in."

Remember: "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything!"

-- Posted by Obadieh on Sun, Jul 15, 2007, at 1:08 AM
Actually, I do agree that our soldiers do kill innocent men, women, and children. However, if you would have read what I previously wrote I said that I do not blame my peers for this. I mentioned the circumstances, which they are fighting under, and human nature. Abusing prisoners like we have seen our soldiers is not quite the same thing I would say. I don't quote every news story I see, I post news stories I see that are worthwhile. I did quote a recent edition of the Guardian that is very sound. I live across the street from their offices, and I'm confident in their reporting. I can do fact checking for you if you're curious though. In fact, I'm more confident in their reporting of this story than the reporting of Fox News, CNN, et al; to reference the former blog. To continue with the posts on the Iraq website...you're right I did 'hear' 100,000 civilians were killed. I heard that from independent organizations doing their best to keep a body count, because the U.S. government does not even do so. The Washington Post reported that. Look that up. Also see quotes from our generals for confirmation about our not keeping body counts. You're right that there are casualties in war, but if you recall from our President's announcements and my previous posts...this war is over. If we are in the business of taking dictators out of power, then why are we also in the business of putting them into power? See El Salvador, Guatemala...et al. Why then are we still in Iraq while Kim Jong Il rules over the North Koreans in a far worse fashion than Saddam Hussein ever did. Check those facts. Look at the lives of the North Koreans. You won't find that on Fox News. I say we should have been in North Korea before Iraq, and why? Well because they were parading their nuclear weapons up and down the streets while we made assumptions that Saddam Hussein had weapons based on OLD information. Remember that the government just sort of admitted this and then quickly changed THEIR reasons for this war THROUGH propaganda into the 'America is liberating the Oppressed.' Do you think the lives of the Iraqis are better now? Do you think they are happy with living under the constant threat of being killed by an insurgency fighting the U.S. troops who are occupying their country? Would you be happy with that? I may post news stories from MSNBC, but I can give you factual backing for every comment I say. If you want them, give me your e-mail and you'll get them. They won't be from MSNBC. Can you do the same? Or will you quote the fair and balanced Fox news. The same Fox News with the same news director who is also a relative of George W. Bush? The same Fox News that was labeling Mark Foley as a democrat whenever he was in the midst of his turmoil? That same fair and balanced Fox?

Now then, moving on to the next guy addressing me. Let's see...do I have a problem understanding what you said? No. Maybe you have a problem recalling what you wrote. Let me remind you...

They do have the passion. These are the young men and women that volunteer to join our armed forces every day. Not drafted and volunteering to go to Iraq and Afghanistan. Volunteers, not one draftee and not because they are uneducated or are poor people looking for a job. The unemployment rate is pretty low. Pure passion and patriotism. Some don't have it and some people have to look close to recognize it I guess because of what we saw passion as in the past and as was reported to us. They are not dirty looking with long hair and walking around in a stupor like many were in the 60's. I remember it. Not all were like that and I wouldn't want to insult those who voiced their true felt dissent about what was happening, but they had a lot of help from a lot of people who just thought it was cool. Walk around in a dope induced daze and chant anti- government slogans. Cool to have passion, in the 60's anyway. Not so cool and not so noticeable today, but it sure is there. Next time you see a sober, clean shaven, articulate and alert military member in uniform who probably is working on attaining a college degree, recognize that you are looking at a young kid with passion and loves their country of course. Cool passionate people. I love'm. Can you tell?

I said...

I know many of my peers who joined the armed services for a thousand reasons BUT doing what they believe in. I think that youth are more active now than they have ever been, but because they try to actually accomplish goals instead of completely bucking the system they are overlooked. What am I talking about you ask? Well just recently the LiveEarth concerts are a good place to start. If that isn't enough, how about global efforts such as the Invisible Children Campaign (Uganda), the campaign to save Darfur (Sudan), or the Live8 concerts? Aside from these major movements, many not-for-profit organizations are staffed and worked by youth who are not even paid.

and...

While some of those serving our nation felt compelled to rush out and fight, I know for a fact that the military is one of the best alternatives to paying back Sallie Mae forever.

I then gave you the facts from the Army's own website about the military paying for their people's college, and I also gave you a chart of military pay. That chart coincides with what you say. However, maybe you should read about re-enlistment bonuses and combat pay. Then you might think that the military gets a little more pay.

Now then, you said...

Tell me who the kids are (that you know) that are doing all this volunteering, not MSNBC and I will thank them the next time I see them.

And I say go here...

http://www.invisiblechildren.com/

http://www.savedarfur.org/

http://www.peacecorps.gov/

http://www.habitat.org/eca/

http://www.bbbs.org/

...and if you want more I will be happy to supply them. Maybe if you get out of town and go to some campuses and look around you'll see these kids. In fact, I'll be glad to give my address the next time I'm volunteering.

Finally, I was not degrading the military. I was speaking the truth, and it is a sad truth. Just like it is a sad truth that many college students are not involved and are wastes. I said before and will say again that I do not hold these service people entirely accountable for their actions. They are put in situations that are beyond normal. Of course they act that way. However, I do think it is false for anyone to make sweeping generalizations. That's what was done in the first post on this blog about the 'clean-cut articulate military kids.' I just reminded you of the ones who are bad apples, and the kids who aren't military who are good apples. If you have a hard time being objective, then that's your problem. I said give respect where it is deserved. Give credit where credit is due. I have and will continue to do what when talking about the military or anyone else deserving. Will you do the same?

-- Posted by jabelson on Sun, Jul 15, 2007, at 3:58 AM
Oh yeah...remember when the government was good? I bet some of you do. Remember when we defeated the Nazis, the Japanese, and Mussolini in the same amount of time that it has taken us to secure the road from the airport to Baghdad? Remember when the President said we were going to the moon and we did? What happened to that?

Anyone know who said that? I bet if you do it'll really ruffle all of your feathers. Get to your googling now. P.S.

Obadieh...what is wrong with quoting the Guardian?

-- Posted by jabelson on Sun, Jul 15, 2007, at 4:01 AM
Oh and...you might need to tell the G.O.P. to support the war, because it looks like they're bailing on Dubya and his war too. Oh and over in London it looks like they'll be bringing their boys home before we do. I hope we have enough servicemen and women to go around before we go and open up a can on our next enemy!

-- Posted by jabelson on Sun, Jul 15, 2007, at 4:53 AM
Let me expand even more for you:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/14/AR2007071400463....

http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/14/1978709.htm?section=world

http://www.suntimes.com/news/world/467967,CST-NWS-iraq14.article

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-iraq15jul15,0,7051749.story?...

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/15/washington/15prexy.html?ref=world

http://www.abcnews.go.com/WN/story?id=3378376&page=1

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/04/AR2007070401744....

...I can post current news stories all day, but can you objectively read them and fact check those stories?

-- Posted by jabelson on Sun, Jul 15, 2007, at 5:00 AM
Can you fact check them? Say it to yourself, 1.1 million dead so you can post here freely without fear of retribution and I have the right to agree or disagree or not read at all. Fact check that.

-- Posted by I.B. Le Truth on Sun, Jul 15, 2007, at 7:54 AM
Wow, you guys are amazing. Look at the times that these entries were posted! Some of you are staying up all night!

Wake up, Corey, and see what's happened on your blog overnight!

When I get about 5 hours of time, I'm gonna look up all those links that Jabelson posted, but I expect to be totally confused by it all! How can so many intelligent people have such diametrically opposed opinions??

-- Posted by goat lady on Sun, Jul 15, 2007, at 8:06 AM
Not that I am trying to pick a fight but Jabelson, if you are going to "fact check" please look at other sites and media sources other than known liberal ones please. All I ask is to see things from both sides. I stated this on Live Earth blog, but "selectivity is a great tool when making a point". To get the full verision of things you have to look at things from all corners. If you only go in one door then you are beleiving exactly what they want you to beleive. Conservative radio and news sources are just as bad about showing their points as liberal ones. We have to realize that the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. Both sides stretch the truth.

-- Posted by hgdexter on Sun, Jul 15, 2007, at 9:27 AM

Corey Noles' response:
That's a great point and I've often thought that. The problem is that there are no "unbiased think-tanks". Frankly, I like when they are open about what they believe because it makes it easier for me to determine whether or not to believe what they say. Even the factcheck websites I find seem to be quite biased.

Like you said, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. The problem lies in the fact that so many people believe everything they hear while the politicians are trying so hard to say everything but the truth.

The sad part is that most voters can't read between the lines.
I live on a different continent right now, so my time zone is a bit different from everyone else's. HG, I like to hold all news sources accountable for their mistakes. Even big liberals like Michael Moore do so. Check out his open letter to CNN (big liberal news source, right?). You can fact check even news sources. Statistics that come from independent investigations and the government itself are used in these 'liberal' sources. Those sources just present their research to the people. Just because they might not jive with your political persuasion does not make them illegitimate. However, any blatant errors made by liberal or conservative news media should demand accountability. If any of these sources were blatantly posting bogus numbers, I dare say some conservative watch dogs would be blowing the whistles. And finally, Mr. Truth...I appreciate what the military has done for me. In fact, I believe I said something about giving respect where respect is due. However, once again you can give respect to people not serving in the military for causes they believe, or you can't. That's your choice, and if you really want to get picky we could argue whether or not those who have been killed in Iraq were fighting for our freedom or not. If you'd like to discuss that we can go back to the Iraq board. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the dangers Iraq posed to the freedoms of American citizens. Were they anything like the freedoms that were stripped of Americans by the U.S.A. Patriot Act?

-- Posted by jabelson on Sun, Jul 15, 2007, at 9:46 AM

Corey Noles' response:
Now there's another interesting topic. I think my next blog is going to be on the Patriot Act.
I was hoping it would be on Healthcare, Michael Moore, Sickos, and CNN.

-- Posted by jabelson on Sun, Jul 15, 2007, at 10:18 AM
What freedom have I lost? None that I am aware of. Nothing different going on with what I have been doing. Same thing for the last 10 years. If I wanted to do something illegal, I might be more likely to get caught. Is that worrying you for some reason? What freedom has been stripped from you? What were you doing before that you can't do now? No one is stopping me from doing anything that I have any desire to do. I guess that could be different with other people. I don't know what they feel they have the right to do without someone telling them they can't. They can't plot overthrow of the government with Al Quaeda without fear of being caught. Maybe they could have done that before, I don't know because it never occurred to me that I would like to do that. I guess some things people consider freedoms that really are not and never were.

-- Posted by I.B. Le Truth on Sun, Jul 15, 2007, at 11:27 AM
Again with the websites?

Gosh boy, you have nothing better to do than look up hundreds of web pages to "enlighten" us poor, dumb missourians?

Jabelson, there is nothing wrong with quoting a web site, what I said was you were flip/flopping your views.

First you quoted as truth that story, then you said on this blog that you know our troops aren't shooting puppies, and babies. You're posting something and want us all to believe it, and then recanting your story the next day. THAT is what I was posting about. Not the fact that you were quoting the Guardian.

-- Posted by Obadieh on Sun, Jul 15, 2007, at 12:57 PM
First of all, I don't plan on enlightening anyone with research. I just think you should have facts to back up everything you spout. You obviously don't. By the way, I'm from Dexter chief. Now then, I thought I explained myself. When I said that I don't think our soldiers are shooting puppies and babies, I didn't mean it in the sarcastic sense that you were using it in. Our soldiers do kill the innocent as well as the guilty, and I admitted that when mistakes are made it is because they are in situations that USUALLY justify those actions. I'm not flip flopping on anything (that term sounds familiar...I bet I know who you voted for). I think that first and foremost the leaders of our country putting our soldiers in these situations should be held accountable for the PTSD that they leave Iraq with. Now then, the quotes I posted about our soldiers killing animals, children, and civilians were not meant to decry our soldiers as baby and animal killers. I meant them, as did the Guardian, to show the anguish this war is causing both the Iraqis and our soldiers. If you would look at the context in which I posted those quotes, you will read this...

Now then, the United States military is currently rebuilding this nation as quickly as possible, but we must remember that we caused a great deal of the destruction we are fixing. I think it is important to remember that the longer we are staying in Iraq, the more we are seeing the locals take part in the insurgency.Many oppressed people have been liberated in Iraq, but the quality of life that we are currently providing for these people is not one that we as Americans would tolerate at all whatsoever.

Basically, my point is that our soldiers are at their wits end, and the consequences are saddening. Those quotes show just what our soldiers are driven to do because of the situations they are currently in.

Now then, this...

I won't do any bashing of those in the military, but it seems like more people are in the military for the wrong reason and this is exemplified by the crude, abominable, and embarrassing actions of our servicemen over the last few years.

Was meant to point out the horrid actions of our soldiers when treating prisoners and those who do get a kick out of killing the innocent and their pets.

Does that clarify enough of my statements for you, or are you satisfied in calling me a flip-flopper, beings you refuse to actually factually base any of your arguments?

Now then, I have a question about your 'God created the world, so therefore he wouldn't let humans ruin it' argument. Didn't God create man in his own image? I think you can see where I'm going with that. If you remember your argument then you will. If not I will explain what I mean to you.

-- Posted by jabelson on Sun, Jul 15, 2007, at 5:22 PM
And by the way...'we have our work cut out for us' is certainly true. However, both political parties seem to think that it is an impossible job. I suppose you had better write questions to Senator KIT BOND , Congresswoman JoAnn Emerson, and Claire McCaskill to find out why they all three support withdrawing our troops.

-- Posted by jabelson on Sun, Jul 15, 2007, at 5:29 PM
Professor knows best I guess, I have been to the Middle East and stayed for a while. It isn't anything like you seem to have in mind. The people you know who joined the military aren't the people I served with. Most every military member I served with would not talk or brag about the things you mention. The ones who really seen the action didn't discuss it. The ones who were usually not in a place to see combat told a whole lot of war stories. This ain't no BS you know. Some who will have a political agenda. Some done wrong, got caught and are in prison for what they done. Both political parties should be asking our troops what they need and what they think they need to do to be successful. Not planning for the next election. They sent them, no excuses they did it, good intelligenc or bad intelligence they all did it. Now they should let them finish it. They can. Our soldiers are at wits end because of what is being said and done at home. Not what is going on in Iraq. What is said and goes on here hurts their heart.

-- Posted by I.B. Le Truth on Sun, Jul 15, 2007, at 5:49 PM
That's interesting that you say what is going on here is the reason our soldiers are driven to their wits end, and not the I.E.D.'s blowing up all around them at all times.

http://www.ivaw.org/ I wonder if these veterans agree with you.

I don't think any of the quotes I posted were quotes made by soldiers who were bragging. Do you?

-- Posted by jabelson on Sun, Jul 15, 2007, at 5:55 PM
And surely you know that the reason many active duty members of the military do not speak out against the war is because they are not allowed to. The Uniform Code of Military Justice limits what soldiers may say about political issues.

I hope this doesn't upset anyone, but you can read more about this at....

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9766511

-- Posted by jabelson on Sun, Jul 15, 2007, at 5:58 PM
Ooops! Too late not to upset anyone...

(Sorry, I'll stay out of it...)

-- Posted by goat lady on Sun, Jul 15, 2007, at 8:28 PM
"Now then, I have a question about your 'God created the world, so therefore he wouldn't let humans ruin it' argument. Didn't God create man in his own image? I think you can see where I'm going with that. If you remember your argument then you will. If not I will explain what I mean to you."

I for one am not sure where you're going with that?

There is some truth to both sides. Although I must say I agree largely with Truth.

One of my friends has a son who is in highschool, graduating next year. He had someone from the military approach him on career day, promising him he would never see a war. I wonder how many young men see this, and hear all the "benefits" of joining the armed forces (college tuition, training, etc.) and are promised the same, "No War" bologna.

However, I'm trying to think of a way to say this politely. Le Truth said "Most every military member I served with would not talk or brag about the things you mention. The ones who really seen the action didn't discuss it." My Pa served in World War 2. He told wonderful stories to us about him growing up, about his life. Excellent story teller. Excellent teacher. Just absolutely the best person period. =) Anyways, he never once spoke about the war. Never. I didn't appreciate that part of his life when I was growing up, and would now love to know more about it, what he saw.. etc. Unfortunately, he's passed away so I'll never get the chance to ask him this. I asked my mother if he ever spoke of the war to her and he did not. She said he would probably refuse to talk about it if anyone did ask him.

So, in my rambling, Le Truth, I agree with you here.

Jabelson, I'm truly sorry you're so cynical.. or at least appear to be. I don't know that anyone is spending time going to the billion web pages that you're posting. We are stating our opinion- period. Just because we don't spend hours on the computer searching for factual web pages to support our opionions doesn't make what we feel any less of a truth- to us or people who agree.

-- Posted by vambfly on Sun, Jul 15, 2007, at 8:38 PM
That is not what the UCMJ does. You can't participate in demonstrations or acts of civil disobedience while in uniform. Probably a lot of companies wouldn't want you to do that. Military members make political statemens all the time. It is a little tougher for an Officer. You have to be careful about how you word things. You can usually talk about political policies without fear of retribution. You can get in trouble if you personally attack an individual such as a superior officer or the Commander in Chief. The military actually promotes voting and being politically active. You have to be careful about doing or saying things which would put pressure on your subordinates. You have to be able to understand that. When I was in we talked about political issues. The majority of the time it was conducted among members of a generally equal rank. No one I knew was afraid to talk to the press. Happened all the time. Never seen any enlisted person Court Martialed for it. Heard of a few, but I was under the impression that it was for making what could be construed as an attack on an individual, not a policy.

-- Posted by I.B. Le Truth on Sun, Jul 15, 2007, at 9:24 PM
Vambfly, that's an interesting point you make about the promise of 'No War.' Usually whenever finals roll around on my college campus, so do the military recruiters. They also spout that same line. Two guys living down the hall from me in a dorm I lived in bought into it and enlisted. They heard him say 'No War' and money for college. Guess where they are head to now. That's right. It happens all the time, and I think it is sad that as a college student my only choice for paying off my mounting student loans is combat military service. Now then about I don't know how you'd call me cynical. I try to be factual and objective. It doesn't take long to look up information on the internet, but I guess I have more experience using the internet for research. That's granted. I guess if you would call my desire to hold our government and all of those who make it up accountable for the things they do cynical, that is true. I'll take that as a compliment. Now then stating your opinion is fine. I'm all for it. However, sometimes opinion isn't gospel. I have a lot of opinions. Most of them can't be backed by any sort of information and are all my own thoughts. I'm sure if I posted them on here everyone would call me a communist (if we still hate them). If more than one person wants to go head to head with me on an issue though, I will turn to sources to prove my point. Sorry if that's so offensive, but that's just how it goes.

Moving on to Truth...I think we're getting into a sort of 'he said she said,' argument. You know people who love the military, I know people who don't. I won't be meeting your people, and you won't be meeting mine. That isn't worth pursuing, but I'll put in my last words about the UCMJ later (out of time now).

-- Posted by jabelson on Mon, Jul 16, 2007, at 2:42 AM

Corey Noles' response:
Hmmm...communists? I'm not sure if we still hate them, but I believe we've stopped fearing them. haha...it's hard to keep up with these things.
Oh, and I'll expound upon my comment about the God argument later too!

-- Posted by jabelson on Mon, Jul 16, 2007, at 2:42 AM
Ok, whatever. Quote anything you want. I lived with the UCMJ for 21 years. Never had any problem with it. You know in practice communist have very strict rules. I prefer the UCMJ. What the heck does all this have to do with the original post. I am done, through, outa here.

-- Posted by I.B. Le Truth on Mon, Jul 16, 2007, at 6:37 AM
Well, above someone mentioned stating opinions period, and I was responding to that comment. I'm going to post my criticism against the God/Environment argument on here because it is getting confusing hopping from all of these different blogs (at least it is for me). Which communist nations are you speaking about? China? China has virtually no rules in comparison to those of America. The communism quote was a little fun though...you know haha? I was just speaking with one of my professors who is currently an active member of the military. They will be helping me go through teh UCMJ word for word so I will fully understand all of the document. However, my point for bringing it up was that soldiers are not allowed to demonstrate (as you stated). You are right that soldiers are allowed to speak with the media, and I posted some fine examples (those were the cleanest ones I could find mind you and I thought those would be the best to post). Those quotes weren't soldiers who were upset with the reactions of those on the homefront, but rather quotes showing the true face of the war our soldiers are fighting.

-- Posted by jabelson on Mon, Jul 16, 2007, at 7:14 AM
Well, it's sad that so many do not have much of a passion for current events etc. Our son, who has been attending Bible College and is getting married August 3rd, has the same passion as I do. And I'm proud to say that he's following in my conservative patriotic footsteps!

-- Posted by swift on Mon, Jul 16, 2007, at 11:11 AM
Word for word, the entire UCMJ. Promise me you mean it. May I also suggest the professor review the MCM with you too. Wouldn't be a complete study without it. Get back with us when you finish.

-- Posted by I.B. Le Truth on Tue, Jul 17, 2007, at 7:27 AM
Maybe the MCM could be a class with emphasis on the UCMJ. I could attend that. A lot of discourse could go on there.

-- Posted by I.B. Le Truth on Tue, Jul 17, 2007, at 7:43 AM
Yes, the UCMJ is widely available word for word. I'm working on reading it as I have time. I'd like to read the Manual for Courts-Martials, but I can't seem to find it in entirety like the UCMJ. Any suggestions as to where I could find it?

-- Posted by jabelson on Tue, Jul 17, 2007, at 11:10 AM
More specific, I'm having a hard time finding the entire manual post 2002 amendments. I have come across one from 2000 though.

-- Posted by jabelson on Tue, Jul 17, 2007, at 11:12 AM
I think the latest version is on line, but I am not sure. Might be the latest version. Haven't had any reason to look lately. Hey, are you a legal student or is your professor a lawyer. All this stuff requires legal interpretation, kind of like the Constitution. Lot of pages, close to 1000 pages I would say and a lot of words. They have prosecuting attorneys and defense attorneys in the military. Sometimes the prosecuting attorneys get it wrong. Like I said though, after 21 years I was never charged with a violation. It is not that tough.

-- Posted by I.B. Le Truth on Tue, Jul 17, 2007, at 9:40 PM
Try this post, it will help. If you can get it to work. It's worth seeing.

http://www.youtube.com/v/ervaMPt4Ha0&autoplay=1

-- Posted by I.B. Le Truth on Wed, Jul 18, 2007, at 11:53 PM

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